Wichita Falls Weighlifting videos

[lylemcd]

Mark,

Now that I've hassled you enough, quick question. Your often associated withthe lifting going on in Wichita Falls and Glenn Pendlay and may have seen some discussion in the other thread about the videos found here (http://wichitafallsweightlifting.us/videos.html).

Frankly, I'm a little surprised at some of the technique being shown.

Several of the videos are problematic at best technique wise but one that really stands out is this 115 kg squat (http://wichitafallsweightlifting.us/files/9.22.06_007.mpg). You address the knees bowing in issue pretty extensively in Starting STrength (even if I still disagree with your conclusions, but our upcoming cage match will have to settle that).

I'm curious what you have to say about this squatting and how you'd go about fixing it.

Perhaps more importantly, do you have any involvement with what's going on in Wichita Falls?

thanks
Lyle

[Mark Rippetoe]

Thanks for the opportunity to clear this up. Glenn Pendlay and Wichita Falls Weightlifting have not been associated with Wichita Falls Athletic Club since May 2006 when their operations moved from my facility. Coach Pendlay contributed to our book Practical Programming for Strength Training, which concerns matters of exercise organization. He was not involved in either the first or the upcoming second edition of Starting Strength, which deals with exercise technique.

Glenn and I have had a very productive and cordial relationship, during which I learned quite a bit from him about the nuts and bolts of exercise physiology, functional anatomy, and advanced exercise programming. He has an excellent mind for such things. However, the video in question demonstrates a lack of concern for the details of exercise technique, a recurring problem that I have discussed with him many times, and that in my opinion is one of the few flaws in his coaching practices. I do not condone the more-weight-damn-the-technique approach to training anyone, most especially junior lifters who depend upon coaches for guidance, and this video represents an approach to coaching that I find unacceptable. I think that cueing correct form can and should occur at even PR weight, and counting reps instead of appropriately addressing profound technical errors amounts to a missed opportunity to improve performance.

My thoughts on technical form have been rather extensively explored in Starting Strength. I will reiterate here that while the whole point of strength training is the systematic increase in the amount of weight lifted, lifting more weight cannot and must not take precedence over the mechanically correct movement used to lift it. Productive strength increases must take place in the context of correct technique, because correct technique is defined by skeletal and muscular anatomy. It is the responsibility of coaches, especially those who coach junior athletes, to value and enforce technical perfection.

Rip

[glennpendlay]

Mark,

You know, I know, and we both know that the other knows, that there have been many instances of people squatting in your gym, under your supervision, with form that would make the video in question look like a textbook example of a perfect squat. We have stood side by side and watched some examples of this. We also both know that you have corrected the faults immedietly or over time, and done a great job of coaching a lot of people away from crummy form to great form.

You also know that I have worked with the particular kid in the video pretty extensively on keeping his knees out. You know this because you have been IN THE SAME ROOM when I yelled at this particular kid for letting his knees drift in. You have been there, again, right in the same room, when I have taken weight off his bar because he couldnt squat it with his knees in the right place. In fact, you were not only there, you were part of the conversation when we BOTH talked to him after he got upset at having to lower weight on his clean because of this same knee in issue.

You also know that a characterization of my coaching style, particularly on the squat as a "more weight damn the technique" style is not accurate. You know this because one of the disagreements we have had in face to face conversations relates to my gradual change in belief over time AWAY from an emphasis on increasing leg strength at all costs to a belief that squatting in particular should be done in a more moderate way, with moderate weights, and an emphasis on form and a speed and tempo that is close to the tempo of the snatch and clean and jerk INSTEAD OF an emphasis on increasing weight.

Glenn

[Mark Rippetoe]

Mark,


You also know that I have worked with the particular kid in the video pretty extensively on keeping his knees out. You know this because you have been IN THE SAME ROOM when I yelled at this particular kid for letting his knees drift in. You have been there, again, right in the same room, when I have taken weight off his bar because he couldnt squat it with his knees in the right place. In fact, you were not only there, you were part of the conversation when we BOTH talked to him after he got upset at having to lower weight on his clean because of this same knee in issue.


Glenn

Then why is it still a problem 2 years later? You may imply what you want about my training methods here at WFAC, but I stand firmly by my above statements.

Rip

[Dave76]

Mark,

...there have been many instances of people squatting in your gym, under your supervision, with form that would make the video in question look like a textbook example of a perfect squat...


Glenn,
I'm going to have to both agree and disagree with you here. I've been a member at WFAC for three years now. Certainly, I've seen squats in the gym that looked worse than the video in question.

The thing is, all those "worse" squats were done by absolute novices in their first week of training with less than 100 lbs on their backs. I can honestly say that I've never seen anything like your video from anyone in their second or third week of training.

I wish I could count the number of times that Rip has yelled at me for some minor form deviation. Sometimes, I think that "damn you" is my first name when Rip corrects me.

[lylemcd]

Mark,
You also know that I have worked with the particular kid in the video pretty extensively on keeping his knees out. You know this because you have been IN THE SAME ROOM when I yelled at this particular kid for letting his knees drift in. You have been there, again, right in the same room, when I have taken weight off his bar because he couldnt squat it with his knees in the right place. In fact, you were not only there, you were part of the conversation when we BOTH talked to him after he got upset at having to lower weight on his clean because of this same knee in issue.

and yet that's the video you posted on your websit

now, your attempts to excuse it (here and on my site) by explaining that it's 'just for fun' and 'for the kids to let their friends see' notwithstanding (those are bs explanations anyhow, you could readily put up context on that video page; as it stands it looks like you're using those videos to demonstrate your coaching prowess) notwithstanding, how come you didn't shoot/upload a video of that kid 'doing it right' with a proper weight.

why did you let him squat that 115kg for 5 in the first place? Because after one rep of that, you should have stopped him. PERIOD.

not to mention that I bet he shows the same flaw at lighter weights. It's not as if people's forms suddenly, magically, instantly go bad when the weight goes up. Rather, you tend to see a progrssive deterioration at heavier weights resulting in that kind of a monstrosity.

[bubbles]

I can speak from experience of Glenn's recommendation of removing weight. When he came to our wt room to go over olympic lifts, one of our defensive tackles asked Glenn about an error in squat form, and without the blink of an eye his first words were, "you need to back down the weight and then correct the problem." The kid was a state regional powerlifter, so he was not a novice.

I also seriously doubt Glenn needs to post videos to validate his coaching. I think his athletes accomplishments (read his posts about Caleb for instance) stand for their own. Not sure why you insist on being a dolt on that point. Sit back and think about it. The USAW-WF training site states 'Glenn's trainees have produced over 70 national and international championship podium appearances in the past six year. " I really don't see that site as a way to further himself. Though I could understand how you could feel that way.
If you have never coached a group of high school/jr high kids, then you don't really understand how they get excited about something like being on the net.
We post just our numbers on a site, and when we began that, we started seeing more participation.

It really seems that there is more of a personal animosity behind the posts. I find it interesting how you will reply under the Rip, but not the Oly threads. Seems you are a big Rip fan, which is fine, but seems it might also explain some of the animosity. Just my humble opinion.

I do find it interesting to see so many taking things to such a personal level when they have nothing invested in it.

[Kyle]

I can speak from experience of Glenn's recommendation of removing weight. When he came to our wt room to go over olympic lifts, one of our defensive tackles asked Glenn about an error in squat form, and without the blink of an eye his first words were, "you need to back down the weight and then correct the problem." The kid was a state regional powerlifter, so he was not a novice.

I also seriously doubt Glenn needs to post videos to validate his coaching. I think his athletes accomplishments (read his posts about Caleb for instance) stand for their own. Not sure why you insist on being a dolt on that point. Sit back and think about it. The USAW-WF training site states 'Glenn's trainees have produced over 70 national and international championship podium appearances in the past six year. " I really don't see that site as a way to further himself. Though I could understand how you could feel that way.
If you have never coached a group of high school/jr high kids, then you don't really understand how they get excited about something like being on the net.
We post just our numbers on a site, and when we began that, we started seeing more participation.

It really seems that there is more of a personal animosity behind the posts. I find it interesting how you will reply under the Rip, but not the Oly threads. Seems you are a big Rip fan, which is fine, but seems it might also explain some of the animosity. Just my humble opinion.

I do find it interesting to see so many taking things to such a personal level when they have nothing invested in it.

How many time's have you been to Glenn's training facility?

I personally know people that have said this is not the first time they've seen it from within his training facility. However to each their own, I can only imagine how different an approach would be when working with a group of athlete's with other coach's.

I'm not putting Glenn's ethics or morals on trial here, but what is in question is his coaching of technique. Glenn is a smart guy, however I, and others here and other places, feel that there is a complete lack of technical coaching.

Kyle

[lylemcd]

I can speak from experience of Glenn's recommendation of removing weight. When he came to our wt room to go over olympic lifts, one of our defensive tackles asked Glenn about an error in squat form, and without the blink of an eye his first words were, "you need to back down the weight and then correct the problem." The kid was a state regional powerlifter, so he was not a novice.

I also seriously doubt Glenn needs to post videos to validate his coaching. I think his athletes accomplishments (read his posts about Caleb for instance) stand for their own. Not sure why you insist on being a dolt on that point. Sit back and think about it. The USAW-WF training site states 'Glenn's trainees have produced over 70 national and international championship podium appearances in the past six year. " I really don't see that site as a way to further himself. Though I could understand how you could feel that way.
If you have never coached a group of high school/jr high kids, then you don't really understand how they get excited about something like being on the net.
We post just our numbers on a site, and when we began that, we started seeing more participation.

It really seems that there is more of a personal animosity behind the posts. I find it interesting how you will reply under the Rip, but not the Oly threads. Seems you are a big Rip fan, which is fine, but seems it might also explain some of the animosity. Just my humble opinion.

I do find it interesting to see so many taking things to such a personal level when they have nothing invested in it.

and you're apparently a professional apologist for Glenn.

his videos speak for themselves, tell me what poin there is to address his lame excuses in the other thread.

know what else excites high school kids: making PR's without terrible form. it also impresses others in the field because it makes you not look like an incompetent coach.

and I don't remotely agree with everything Rip says, if you'd read my reviews of his books, you'd be aware of that.

as well, if you come check out my forum, you'll see that I criticize everybody equally (including myself). Trust me, Glenn isn't special in this regards. he just happened to be waht I came across last week.

but keep making excuses for him, I'll add them to the pile he made for himself.

[bubbles]

Kyle,
I have never been to Glenn's facility. He has come down to my school twice. Once was for a strength clinic that I put on for Texas high school coaches. So this is not a case of he said/ she said.
The second time was for a one day clinic put on by Glenn for my athletes. I was not even right there when he told the kid to take the weight off. The kid told me later b/c he was pissed at taking weight off the bar. (If you have worked with hs football players you can understand.)

Lyle,
I don't feel that trying to express my views makes me an apologist, but I guess you do. Not that I care. I wouldn't really read your reviews, as I have witnessed nothing that would make me value your opinion. I am very selective of the several different coaches that I have molded my coaching styles after, and I don't really see you fitting into that mold. when I look at the great coaches, they seem to exhibit a certain humility, and not the false pride some do. You seem to value your opinion much more than it might be worth. If you hold on to only your opinion you might one day find out that you are the only one sitting on your "pile."

[Lifting N Tx]

In the other thread, in response to the idea that he was "guilty" of self promotion, I mentioned why I do not believe that Glenn invented or promoted the term "Pendlay Rows".

Here I wish to say something about Lyle. I doubt that his posting on his site of the link to those videos had anything to do with a dislike of Glenn. Well, I do sometimes suspect that Lyle dislikes everyone, but not Glenn in particular. I don't think he has a pro-Rip agenda either. His review of Practical Programming was generally positive, but not glowing. When someone else posted a negative opinion of the book, Lyle never responded. Up until those videos were posted, I'd also say that most or all mentions of Glenn on the BR site had been positive.

In general, though, Lyle is nit-picky about details including exercise technique. From my observation of his site, I'd say that he loathes censorship, says whatever he thinks in a very blunt manner, and likes it when others do so as well. Finally, he is often either something of an A-hole or likes to appear so. I'm pretty sure that he's used that term to describe himself before.

So I don't think that this whole thing is motivated by a dislike of Glenn, it's just the way Lyle approaches things.

As for Glenn, I think that he's very bright, and a guy that I'd love to have a beer with. Any time I see him post something I read it, usually enjoy it, and often learn something. I still question the practice of allowing that squat form, though.

So, I'd like to ask Mark 2 questions:

1 - Does allowing someone to squat like that with what was clearly at or near his rep maximum constitute not merely bad form but an excessive risk of injury?

2 - In Starting Strength, on page 48, you state that "The only way to fix weak adductors is to make the trainee keep his knees out so that the adductors will get stronger. So good form is actually the cure for bad form."

In your opinion, if the lifter in that video had been squatting correctly for the last 2 years, is it likely that he would still have his knees tracking inward so severely even at a rep-maximum weight?

[glennpendlay]

Dave,

I am glad that you are happy with whats going on at WFAC. It is, and always has been, one of the few, maybe the only commercial gyms around where you can go in and see multiple people, from teenage football players to middle aged women squatting correctly. Rip has always done a great job teaching the basic exercises to such a wide range of people, and I am sure that he continues to do so. However, irrespective of what you have seen, form breakdown with maximal weights does happen, even at WFAC. I hope you didnt take my earlier post as a jab at you or anyone else training there, my feelings about Rips ability to coach exercises like the squat are entirely positive and well known.

And to Lyle,

Your comments now and earlier in the other post show your lack of experience coaching OLifting. Comments like "2-3 glaring technique flaws that could be cured in a couple of weeks" are made by those without experience, not by those with it. I am sure Rip agrees with this, and also sure he would admit it if he was being objective. But thats ok. I am sure I made observations and comments like that 10 or 15 years ago, not quite as publicly and loud as you are, but still sure I made them. Time and experience cured me of that foolishness, and I am sure will cure you also. Good luck in your coaching, maybe someday in the future I will see you at some meets.



Glenn

[GqArtguy]

his videos speak for themselves, tell me what poin there is to address his lame excuses in the other thread.


The videos speak, but youre saying this is reflecting on Glenn's coaching.

Consider this though, youve said before that you yelled at Sarah for 12 months to push through and she's finally getting it, learning to accelerate through the movement. I can see whats up with the squat vid, but I would think that trying to get a concept drilled in over a 12 month period would illustrate why almost all lifts (including Glenn's) exhibit some flaws in technique despite whether theyve been lifting with him for a while.

And none of us on your site knocked your coaching ability given her vids. I think thats the rub that some have with the extension of your argument (not the argument of poor form in itself, though the two are getting a little meshed in both threads).