Good knees forward vs. bad knees forward

[Drewfasa]

Dear Mark,
I've reviewed all the squat checks on the sticky, and read your book, but (forgive me) I still need clarification:

When is forward knee movement acceptable and when is it not. I am not able at the moment to dip below parallel without moving my knees forward: I stick my ass way back, and lean forward until the bar threatens to slide forward (bad, I know). Should I allow forward knee motion for the sake of going below parallel, or just go as low as I can without knees going forward. I'd post a video, but I have no camera (poor bastard).

Many thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Knee movement forward is a necessary part of keeping the bar over the mid-foot, but it has to take place at the right time or it screws up posterior chain drive. If you slide your knees forward at the bottom you're increasing your knee angle, which slacks the hamstrings from the distal (knee) end. Like when you do a machine leg curl, any increase in knee angle shortens the hamstrings. Since the squat depends on hip extension -- a hamstring contraction from the other end, the proximal (hip) end, of the hamstring to open the hip angle, any slack on the tense hamstring from the knee end kills the tension trying to open the hips from the other end. If you allow your knees to slide forward at the bottom, you're destroying your capacity to drive your hips up. Knees must travel forward, but they have to be through doing so by the time you get about 1/3 of the way down, so that the rest of the descent can be used to sit back and tighten the hamstrings and adductors for a better rebound and hip drive out of the hole. This is covered on page 45-48 of BBT.

You can easily get parallel this way. Everybody does, because depth is hip travel, not knee travel. You can actually get depth with no knee travel at all -- with vertical shins -- if you lean forward enough. But this leaves out the quads, and we want to work them. So slide your knees forward first, at the top, then sit back and squat to depth with your hips.

[Drewfasa]

Knee movement forward is a necessary part of keeping the bar over the mid-foot, but it has to take place at the right time or it screws up posterior chain drive. If you slide your knees forward at the bottom you're increasing your knee angle, which slacks the hamstrings from the distal (knee) end. Like when you do a machine leg curl, any increase in knee angle shortens the hamstrings. Since the squat depends on hip extension -- a hamstring contraction from the other end, the proximal (hip) end, of the hamstring to open the hip angle, any slack on the tense hamstring from the knee end kills the tension trying to open the hips from the other end. If you allow your knees to slide forward at the bottom, you're destroying your capacity to drive your hips up. Knees must travel forward, but they have to be through doing so by the time you get about 1/3 of the way down, so that the rest of the descent can be used to sit back and tighten the hamstrings and adductors for a better rebound and hip drive out of the hole. This is covered on page 45-48 of BBT.

You can easily get parallel this way. Everybody does, because depth is hip travel, not knee travel. You can actually get depth with no knee travel at all -- with vertical shins -- if you lean forward enough. But this leaves out the quads, and we want to work them. So slide your knees forward first, at the top, then sit back and squat to depth with your hips.

That clears things up a good deal. Thank you very much.

[Robert Beckett]

So if I get a Terribly Useful Block of Wood - say a 4X4 cut down to exactly 2/3 of the height of my knee - and stand it up 2" in front of my toes when I squat, then I can just aim to slide my knee up & down it as I squat and I'll be OK? Would such a custom-tailored TUBOW by itself be a fix for bad knee travel & lack of hamstring bounce?

[Mark Rippetoe]

It would be if you used it correctly. I have yet to see it fail to work.

[navi86]

Hey Mark,

I thought this was interesting and counter to what you are saying: "The first movement of your squat should always be back – your hips should shift to the rear much like the start of a good morning or a Romanian deadlift. Beginning a squat by breaking at the knees is a great way to injure yourself, develop some serious knee problems and limit the amount of weight that can be used. This is fine if you believe that a 225lbs squat is OK and you think tendonitis and other sordid maladies are signs of being a man.

Once you have reached about halfway, open up your hips (push your knees out or “open your groin”) and squat DOWN. This will ensure that your knees are still safely inline with your ankles or the midpoint of your foot while still maximizing the strength in your quads. "

This is from Jim Wendler discussing raw squat form in an article (http://www.elitefts.com/documents/causal_friday.htm). Do you agree to disagree?


Keep in mind that I am certainly not trying to challenge you or say "you're wrong" or anything. I'm just hoping to learn from some discussion on the topic.

Thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Jim is commenting here on a different style of squat than I coach, and his cues are exactly appropriate to a powerlifting squat. Remember, we are using the squat to train as much muscle mass as possible, and Jim is teaching you how to squat as much weight as you can for a single in a power meet. The differences are subtle, but important.

[Dan F.]

Jim is commenting here on a different style of squat than I coach, and his cues are exactly appropriate to a powerlifting squat. Remember, we are using the squat to train as much muscle mass as possible, and Jim is teaching you how to squat as much weight as you can for a single in a power meet. The differences are subtle, but important.

Some lines of my experience with squat: after about two months os SS I was squatting 92kg 5x3 and filmed myself. My form was not decent at all, different from what is the form you coach in SS and from what I thought was good form doing it - perhaps it was accidentally similar to what Mr. Wendler describes. Then I restarted from 72kg trying to mantain more strict form: now I'm at 86kg but it seems they are harder for me than 92!

I think that some weeks ago I used more quads (and glutei) and now I use more hamstrings and internal muscles of thighs to go up, muscles that are surely a lot detrained in me (and full of tightness, expecially hamstrings) so the greater difficult. Is this plausible as explanation? Is it possible I was "stronger" using only quads?

[Dave(DBD)]

Jim is commenting here on a different style of squat than I coach, and his cues are exactly appropriate to a powerlifting squat. Remember, we are using the squat to train as much muscle mass as possible, and Jim is teaching you how to squat as much weight as you can for a single in a power meet. The differences are subtle, but important.

With that in mind: In your approach to the squat should you be breaking down at the hips or the knees? I've read the original SS and I'm kinda confused about this. I've been focusing on breaking down at the hips and it seems to be easier on my knees.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It is possible, actually probable, that Dan is still squatting wrong, without correct hip drive. Most people find that when their form changes to the hip-drive style I teach that their squat immediately goes up. I'd have to see.

And "breaking down"?