Training Based on Beltlessness

[Bradaust]

I don't think a beltless lift is more worthy. I just note that many people get very strong without them, and are no more injury-prone than their belted friends. In a healthy adult, I don't think belts are useful for beginners, they're counterproductive in fact. GG ain't no beginner.

In the end, it's your business. Feel free to tell Markos and those PTC goons at ausbb.com to bugger off. You have to do what feels best for you. Just make sure you know the difference between being careful of injury and being overly timid. Be bold in the gym, not stupid. In wearing a belt, GG is being careful of injuries, the healthy but scrawny guy who quarter-squats 225lbs is just being a dick.

Kyle ive just read threw some of the Ausbb fourms, particularly the threads regarding belt use.

I cant help but wondering firstly what qualification you hold in human biomechanics, and secondly how you can even post here given your negative opinion on belts basically undermines everything that occurs in SS and beyond? And by negative opinion i am refering to your ausbb posts.

And what the hell are you on about quater squats? This isnt a BBing forum, and the vast majority of posters on this forum are well aware nothing beyond parallel is useful to anyone.

Stop sucking up the ass of a powerlifter who charges $20 individually for a group session of barbell training in a garage, in Frankston of all places, and start repespecting a bloke who has the degrees, owns his own gym and has more proven success stories then most coaches in the western world.

Do us all a favor and choose a side mate.

[Gary Gibson]

I am not getting mixed up in any fighting here...

But Jayzus Christ!!!!

That AusBB site is something else.

http://ausbb.com/bodybuilding-traini...eally-raw.html

There are actually people out there arguing about the rawness of squat shoes. I post on this shit jokingly when it comes to raw, but some people are taking it very seriously.

According to a poster in that thread there are Xfitters who think that you should only squat what you can clean onto your back!! I kid sometimes about squat racks and benches not being RAAAAW, but again some people are taking this shit dead serious.

One guy referenced my article on gear and belts and such without bashing me, much to my surprise.

[Bradaust]

Food for thought Gary,

The individual behind the entire argument (and the entire forum), the bloke running PTC, has recently purchased a a Zhang Kong IPF rated chinese made Powerlifting bar.

Obviously the reason behind such an extravagant purchase (retail is around $800) is to increase numbers by use of a superior bar, this has been said so himself and proven with the instant PR's claimed on first use.

All this whilst still standing against the use of any gear...

The only thing more irritating then this is the "strong is strong" one liner often used as a counter argument on those stupid forums.

[cannibal.horse]

The biggest problem in program design will always be the end user.

I eliminated as much chance for error that I could, I included the weight to be used.

Not a percentage, the actual weight to be lifted.

All around the country, lifters are smashing PB's on this system. It simply uses the time tested theory of if you progressively lift heavier weights, you'll get stronger.

Science is not required. The correct amount of sets/reps for the average guy, who goes to work or school, not can sit around and nap between sessions, eat perfectly every 2 hours.

He doesnt take steroids, doesnt wrap up like a mummy, likes to train for around an hour.

Those muppets at SS are simply jealous. There will always be critics. We had 16 lifters smash 53 National Records. They still hate. In August we will smash World Records. They'll still hate. So were going over in Sept to compete on their turf, now theyre really going to hate.

I read the link you gave me GTST, I really cant be bothered arguing with muppets.

Rippetoe is a brilliant businessman, far better than me, its good to see he has his flock in order.

I got banned from Stronglifts because I pointed out that PTC lifters would be #1 and #2 in every weight class they have on that forum, training differently to their Guru. I got banned. We proved our lifts in official competition, theirs is a web based comp, no gym lol

Why does my shitty garage get picked on so much, from people halfway around the world, that I have never spoken to.

Wait till they see the new shirts coming out this week lol

I GOT 99 PROBLEMS BUT A BELT AINT ONE

Should be in stock by the weekend, now there REALLY going to hate

...

[Gary Gibson]

I didn't have a horse in this race before because I really wasn't paying attention to AusBB or PTC. But horse's post got me curious, so I took a look.

This Markos dude is getting people stronger and for that he is to be commended. I hate that these ideological divisions about belts keep cropping up and pitting board against board and poster against poster. I've learned that fully geared strong guys are to be respected, as are really strong guys who just use belts and wraps, or just belts, or nothing at all. Strong is indeed strong, but the guys who train the gear still very much tend to be the strongest of the strong. Markos has produced some respectably strong people, but I'm not seeing any results about which to be swinging any dicks.

I've compiled deadlift and squat meet results along with bodyweights of their strongest guys from this page, and used the deadlift as the ordering criterion, mostly because it is helped less than the squat by the belt. I'm also assuming that their competition bests were done without a belt.

http://www.ptcfrankston.com/ptccompresults.html

I'm using myself as the barometer so I've left out any upper body lifting because my own upper body lifting is like that of a high school girl's.

DL---SQ---Bodyweight
______________________
273.5---207.5---93.3 (Chris--wow!)
265---190---107.9
260---220---110.5
260---190---108.3
260---200---104.4
247.5---172.5---81.1 (Kelly--wow!)
240---170---101.1
240---165---124.5
230---175---111.9
220---160---84.5 (Nico)
220---155---94.9

So with the exception of two people--the impressive Kelly and Nico--all the conventional deadlifts as heavy or heavier than mine were done by men weighing well over 200 lbs. (I weigh 180-184.)

Their results really fall below mine once you get below 80 kilos bodyweight, so comparisons aren't fair. Here then are the best DL and SQ results from men only slightly heavier than I (with exception of Kelly who weighs a couple pounds less than I)...

DL---SQ---Bodyweight
_____________________
247.5---172.5---81.1 (Kelly again)
220---160---84.5 (Nico again)
200---170---89.6
190---140--83.7
185---165---86.5

My competition bests raw (belt, knee sleeves)
DL---SQ---Bodyweight
___________________
230---190---81

These are a belted sumo deadlift and belted squats, so I have some 'splain' to do...

I compete sumo and use a belt because I'm not a real man, but I recently maxed a conventional deadlift in the gym at 490 (~222.5) with a belt at 183 lbs (83 kilos). I freely admit that without being able to push against that belt, my best that day would have been 470 (~212.5). I'm about to test a new DL gym max at 181 lbs in a week and I really, really hope to get quite a bit over 500 lbs. Also, the belt allows me to squat 15 kilos over my best belt-less max (and about 10 kilos for my deadlift). So assume my best squat is 175 kilos for comparison with these guys. Looking at the chart, that still puts this cheating belt-user ahead of the slightly bigger boys. (Edit: I just discovered that the gym in question counts sumo as "a legitimate lift" so I guess I'm allowed to use my sumo numbers for consideration here.)

I'm not bragging about any of this. My lifts are respectable but very modest and bragging about them would be as foolish as bragging about an 8" dick. My genetics are those of a mediocre distance runner and even with obsessive devotion my lifting results will never get international notice. I'm just making comparisons of results using myself since I'm the loudmouth who keeps pushing the use of a belt.

If my broken, below-average black ass is recovered from my knee troubles come August, I'd like to compete in the Ironman division for Raw United just to show how well geared training (belt, sleeves wraps) carries over to completely naked lifting. The meet's right here in Orlando so I have no excuse not to go. I'm doing USAPL raw in July (again, knee injury permitting) at 181 to see how well I can do against my last results in that fed, division and weight class. But I feel it is necessary to put it on the line occasionally in sanctioned 1000000% RAAAAAAAAW meets just to show that using a belt and knee sleeves or wraps will get you strong too, because my name is attached to lengthy articles and posts defending this very notion. (I'll probably take it easy on the squat, however, if I'm not wearing anything on my knees.) The really strong, extreme gear guys have been stepping into the belt/sleeves only RUM to show that they are still the strongest.

Lastly I want to make it clear that I have only respect for the results the PTC guys are getting. I think their hatred of belts makes about as much sense as creation "science", but they are getting results and for that they are to be commended.


P.S.

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron
I don't think a beltless lift is more worthy. I just note that many people get very strong without them, and are no more injury-prone than their belted friends. In a healthy adult, I don't think belts are useful for beginners, they're counterproductive in fact. GG ain't no beginner.

In the end, it's your business. Feel free to tell Markos and those PTC goons at ausbb.com to bugger off. You have to do what feels best for you. Just make sure you know the difference between being careful of injury and being overly timid. Be bold in the gym, not stupid. In wearing a belt, GG is being careful of injuries, the healthy but scrawny guy who quarter-squats 225lbs is just being a dick.

I have to agree with this.

[Kyle Schuant]

Kyle ive just read threw some of the Ausbb fourms, particularly the threads regarding belt use.

You should be pleased, you inspired a newsletter from Markos. Normally he just writes about general training/diet principles and his good lifters. Feel honoured

I cant help but wondering firstly what qualification you hold in human biomechanics,

In experience, several years in the military during which I was a Combat Fitness Leader (this is well short of being a trainer or coach, but you do learn a bit), saw a lot of guys injure themselves for a variety of reasons. Plus a bit of client training since completing certificates, not a heap though, I'm just new. In qualifications, Certificates III and IV in fitness from RMIT. Heaps more reading and talking to experienced coaches and trainers - as in any profession, school is only the beginning of your education.

And you?

and secondly how you can even post here given your negative opinion on belts basically undermines everything that occurs in SS and beyond? And by negative opinion i am refering to your ausbb posts.

In the thread GG linked to, I said,

"I only expect to deal with beginners, so it's not really relevant for me. I don't see a belt doing harm or good with someone squatting 80kg, at 200kg it'd be different I'm sure, but 99.9% of the gym-going population does not squat 200kg."

I should have added that it's different when dealing with someone with an injury, or history of injuries. I wouldn't say that's a "negative opinion" on belts. Saying that something does neither harm nor good isn't negative. It's neutral.

And what the hell are you on about quater squats? This isnt a BBing forum, and the vast majority of posters on this forum are well aware nothing beyond parallel is useful to anyone.

I'm talking about what we commonly see in mainstream gyms - the guys wearing belts are doing quarter-squats with unimpressive weights. The belts are neither helping nor hindering them in their efforts, other things are much more significant.

Stop sucking up the ass of a powerlifter who charges $20 individually for a group session of barbell training in a garage, in Frankston of all places,

I'm sure Markos would be surprised to learn that I'm "sucking up the ass" of him (weird grammar mate, plus American spelling, bad boy!), since we've had significant disagreements in the past.

His rates (if that's what they are, I wouldn't know) I think compare favourably with most personal and small group training around. The gym I hope to work at soon charges considerably more, and it's a community gym, supposedly non-profit. However, I'd note that most people compare cost with value. You could pay less for training, or more - but results count. If people get poor or no results, it doesn't matter how cheap the thing is; if people get results, they'll pay well. So I'd judge the value by the results.

Still, if you don't think it's worth it, I'm not that fussed, I don't go there myself. Not my style, and I have particular issues (scoliosis) he's not qualified to deal with. I simply note that other people who do go there have got good results - and without belts.

and start repespecting a bloke who has the degrees, owns his own gym and has more proven success stories then most coaches in the western world.

Who are you talking about? Rippetoe? I didn't know he had any degrees. Anyway, I've shown Rip the greatest respect - I actually bought his books and DVD, and then read and watched them. I've spoken many times about how they are excellent resources for both lifters and trainers, I learned a lot about coaching from watching the DVD.

Most people praising or whinging about him have never read the books or seen the DVD, at most just have a pirated download.

How about you?

Obviously the reason behind such an extravagant purchase (retail is around $800) is to increase numbers by use of a superior bar, this has been said so himself and proven with the instant PR's claimed on first use.

I think you missed the bit where they went to an official competition and competed using the same bars as everyone else.

Markos has produced some respectably strong people, but I'm not seeing any results about which to be swinging any dicks.

I'm not in favour of swinging dicks, either [Edit - though apparently the lifts are a bit higher than the website indicates, seems like they're a bit slack with updating it], but it's worth remembering that his joint's only been open 2-3 years, and is quite literally just a garage. Most of those there have little or no lifting history behind them. Not many gyms can boast that after 3 years they have a dozen or more lifters seriously competing at state and national level and setting records. Sure, it's only nationally here in Australia, and the competition ain't huge (yet we still have two federations, sigh), but there it is. Puts it in context.

[burnsco]

I miss training with my belt, I grew out of it in the last few weeks just waiting for my next one to be delivered